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0:00:04
You're listening to the shared security show, exploring the trust you put in people and technology. With your hosts, Tom Eston, Scott Wright, and Kevin John set. Welcome to episode two hundred and sixty four of the shared security show. And joining me this week is very special guest, Kathleen Smith, chief outreach officer, mets clearjobs dot net. Welcome back to the show, Kathleen. Oh, I'm so excited to be here. I know wow, look at all those numbers. That's fabulous. Congrats. I hope you're proud of that. I am. I am. Thank you. Thank you very much. And and in fact, you've been a part of that this journey of the podcast. You were actually on episode one hundred -- Mhmm. -- which was a couple years ago, and then I actually had you on the show way back in two thousand nineteen -- Mhmm. -- as well. So you are a frequent reoccurring guest. So congratulations. Oh, thank you. It's an honor to be here. Really? Really? I mean, you've done such a beautiful job with the podcast and you're so well thought of in the community. So It's always great to me on your show. Obviously, if this is my third time. Yes. That's all. Thank you for the kind words. Much appreciated. You're welcome. So today, we wanted to have you back on the show And the topic, of course, there's a lot going on in the tech industry right now with we have layoffs.

0:01:35
We have a lot of things going on in the recruiting world. And I think it's just a interesting time right now for people looking for new opportunities or maybe they don't have a choice. Right? They have to look for a new opportunity because they've just unfortunately been laid off. But maybe before we get into that, can you talk a little bit just about yourself and and your background and and all the cool stuff you've been up to? Happy to. Yeah. It was funny when you were saying the different times I've been involved I've been on the show, the different things I've been involved in that. So I always believe that marketing or any kind of business development, any kind of business success is by getting out into the community and talking to people. And that is what I've always loved doing. I love putting together events and being part of events. And I get a little, you know, anxiety about it, but I also get a bit of a rush. So I've been involved in many of the B sides, security B sides, hiring villages, and career villages, started higher ground at Besides Las Vegas, helped Besides San Antonio, Besides charm, quite a few other B sides, put together their career villages, worked with the team for Devcon career village, And this is all an offshoot of what I do for my day to day job, which is working in the security cleared community and putting on job fairs, but also working with customers on how do they outreach to job seekers and also talking to job seekers, how they you know, outreach to customers because it's this huge question.

0:03:15
You know, how do I find a job? How do I find the right people? People have been talking about it for, you know, I've been in this industry now over twenty years. No gray hairs. No. Over twenty years, And the conversation is exactly the same.

0:03:31
People say, I can't do this and I can't find the right people. But at the same time, we keep throwing tech at it. And I'm like, we're talking about people. As much as we wanna throw tech at it, we're talking about people, finding people to do something that inspires them or brings bottom, you know, bottom line value to the company. So it's about the people.

0:03:54
So that's what I love doing. Awesome. And you are a podcaster. Yeah. How did I forget about that? Oh my gosh. To Matt. Yes. You know, it's interesting.

0:04:07
I my team brought it to me, and I was like, I I just don't wanna do it. I don't wanna do it. And they really sort of pushed back. So kudos to my entire team who, you know, the boss says, no and They tell me I have to do it. And just around at the same time, a dear friend of mine who had been a customer for several years decided to leave the government contracting world and go into the commercial world. And I said, you know, She has just got a great personality and is so well thought of in talent acquisition and is a character in her own right. So Rachel Bozeman, formally of another company. Now at Consumer Cellular, is my cohost. And -- Okay.

0:04:57
-- we have great fun, a lot of good energy, and we really talk to our customers, cleared employers who have different approaches to how they find people. They also have unique opportunities because they support different government contracts. When people think of government contracting, they think it's just government work. And I'm like, well, you could be supporting, you know, the space industry or you may be supporting intelligence or you may be doing cyber security on, you know, foreign soil. You know, it's a a whole variety of different projects. And so it's it's been a lot of fun. And, yeah, we're almost a year one. That's awesome. So yeah. It's it's been a lot of fun. Well, I mean, it doing a podcast is a ton of work. So -- Mhmm. -- I I can feel, you know, just the, you know, what that's like, especially starting something new. So that's really exciting.

0:06:02
And we will, of course, link that in the show notes for everybody and they can check that out. Thank you. Thank you. Of course. Of course. And I forgot to say we also have security clearances are sort of this big, you know, term out there. We have a really phenomenal security clearance lawyer who comes in every few episodes and sort of gives us updates on recent litigation, the various different guidelines that people need to keep in aware of. Because maintaining your security clearance is an entire other job in of itself. And if you don't understand how the guidelines are ever shifting, you may catch yourself in trouble. So Tony comes on every few shows and and gives us a little update. Awesome. He's he's very knowledgeable and a lot of fun to talk to. Great. Great. So obviously, you know, we see in the news pretty much every day now. There has been this surge in layoffs. And -- Mhmm. -- specifically in the tech industry and and obviously in cybersecurity too, we're we're kinda seeing it all over the place.

0:07:12
What is your advice to people that were recently let go from a job. Don't panic. That's great advice. Number one Don't panic. That's right. Yeah. And I I say it again, don't panic because usually, what ends up happening is the moment you panic, you start making a lot of really bad decisions. And you know, I know it's easier said than done. You didn't think you'd ever get laid off. You hear it happening, but you don't think it's gonna impact you. You think that it is not gonna happen to the tech industry. And I I have just been absolutely shocked at how many layoffs I've been seeing. You know, we can talk about why it possibly happened, but that doesn't help. Someone who's been laid off.

0:08:06
I think that, again, back to what I first said, don't panic, is really taking a step back and looking at what you want to do and what you're good at and what you're going to be successful at. Rather than looking at the position title you had and sort of the outer casing of what that job was about? Was it a location? Was it a title? Was it a role? What was the essence of that job you'd like to do? Was it the technology? Was it customer facing? Was it leading a team? Were you a sole contributor?

0:08:47
Really remembering those key elements of what made you very comfortable and very successful in your job and really anchoring in that because a lot of times when I see people shifting to another job or in a rush to get a job, they're like, I won't take anything other than a director I won't take anything other than leading a team. I won't do this. I won't do that. I'm like, you know, right now, you're not in as much of a driver's seat as you thought you were. And you're not going to be successful in finding a job unless you look at the essence of the job that you're trying to find.

0:09:29
And it's also a good time to, you know, we were talking before the show it's always good to have some time to reflect on what kind of environment you like to work. And we're in a new point where we have hybrid jobs, we have remote jobs, we have people relocating what did you learn about yourself during the pandemic? And what did you learn about your work environment during the pandemic? To sort of ground yourself in the kind of new job you want to find. And this is very similar to a lot of advice I give over the years because introspection is never something that people go through when they're in a job search. No matter the industry, no matter the level, it's it always seems to be for people about the title, the, you know, position, the money, the perks all of the ancillary things rather than these things that are going to make us excited to get up and go to work.

0:10:43
When I talk to people who are in my community, they could have to go to work to support the or to support the war fire the warfighter. I mean, if, you know, my friend that we the community lost Mike Murray last year, and he was really passionate about health care security. He really wanted to make hospitals safe, and he really got to understand what made them work on the inside. There are other people I know who are really excited about cryptos, so I think it's really getting back to those basics of What are you passionate about? And do you want remote? Do you want hybrid? Do you want to relocate? Don't rush through those decisions. Give yourself a few days. And then for goodness sake, please, people. Clean up your resumes.

0:11:42
I had to get off I had to get off of slack and discord because I was doing so many resume reviews. And I said people, you're really please quit filling out the templates online. Yeah. Quit having your buddies review your resume have some I mean, there's so many recruiters out there who will do free resume review. We do them at all of our career villages. Yeah. I I I was really getting very confused and very frustrated on Discord when really great helpful community. I'm not discounting this board. I'm just saying, everyone is having everyone else review their resume and they're like, dude, that looks like really good resume. I'm like, no, it does it. There is a lot to say about that. I mean, and that's something I've told people too is like, you you're better off going to someone in recruiting someone as, you know, find one of those resume review sessions like you had mentioned that that are always available in the community. I see so many people in recruiting and and in that area even offering those services for free. That you can take advantage of and get real professional Never pay for resume review. Never pay for resume review. Review. Yeah. Or to have someone write your resume. Don't. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

0:13:03
And I think the other point you just made too is about just reflecting right, on the type of job that you want, reflecting on your past job, would you like, would you dislike? I don't think we take enough time. To think about that even if you're not laid off, like in your current job and think about are am I truly happy? I mean, what are the things that make me happy? That's so important. Well, what we were talking about before we started recording was there is so much more you can do with your career with your current employer, but you're not having the right conversations. You know, if you're bored in your position right now, you should be telling your manager that. You should be saying, is there someplace else in the company that I could, you know, learn something new or be challenged? Or what we were chatting them out before with, I'm amazed at how many people don't understand their employers are fine with them going and presenting and work looking at conferences, you just have to let them know. Yeah.

0:14:03
You know, some some employers, yes, they wanna know the December before the following year. But, you know, they have to think of travel budgets. Mhmm. They have to think of staffing. They have to, you know, sort of push back, you know, Are you going to def con to goon, or are you going to def con to No. You're only learning something. Nothing against students. I love you guys, but you know, I'm not quite sure. Well, you know, there is conflict resolution as a a skill set that can be learned in one of those soft skills. So, yes, you know. That is important. Don't wanna get in trouble with the goons. No. We'll do that. No. No. No. No. I'm not gonna do that.

0:14:43
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0:16:51
So how has the recent economics situation and the job market affected recruiters like yourself? And and maybe thinking about that question in terms of, like, cyber security? So there's more talent out there now, which is interesting. But I'm not quite sure if people understand that not only are tech people getting laid off so our recruiters. Because companies are looking to save money to increase their bottom line they're looking at their stock prices that they're really trying to take care of. So recruiting departments are also being fired and laid off and clean slates. So if you had had some relationship with a company and a company's recruiting team and you're not hearing back from them, You might wanna check LinkedIn, make sure that they're still working there. How is it affecting? I think because there is now more of a shortage of recruiters, it's you're probably having someone who doesn't understand tech recruiting as well or cybersecurity recruiting as well. And I always say that this is a really a great time for reverse education.

0:17:59
If you're in an interview with somebody who doesn't quite know how to ask the questions or might be fumbling over, okay, Linux or Java. What what is that? Take a breath, be patient, and actually try to have a conversation with them. Don't condescend. Don't criticize. I mean, this person was probably trying to interview an admin and a sales exec two hours ago, and it's now trying to flip and you know, interview someone in tech and cybersecurity. But if you don't have the patience for that or you don't think the person is open to that conversation, you know, at least get through the interview and see if you can get to the next stage of the interview as far as the tech interview -- Mhmm. -- and be sure that you ask that question, you know, will there be someone who understands technology more that can I can ask some questions and they can ask me?

0:18:58
I think a lot of job seekers, specifically in cybersecurity, really do themselves a disservice by getting frustrated and angry with that first level of, shall I say, defense, which is the HR recruiting department who basically has to make sure that certain minimum requirements are met. Mhmm. Now remember those minimum requirements aren't set by HR. They're set by the program that you're gonna be working for or the, you know, the tech department. And I always find that a fascinating conversation between hiring managers and the recruiters because hiring managers get really frustrated. And they go out and they hire their own firms. They said, you know, if you just sat down and explained your job requirements to your HR department, you might get something more efficiently done. And I've had several recruiters come online and talk about that. They're like, I have candidates in my pipeline. I just have a tech department that's not willing to sit down and interview the candidates or at least talk to you know, tell me more about their requirements.

0:20:07
I think in cybersecurity, I like to always think of our biggest challenge is ourselves. We like to say, I'm a Penn tester. I'm a crypto. I'm I'm a this. And if you're not gonna call me that I don't wanna talk to you versus saying, I have these tech skills and I have these soft skills. And I like to solve problems and selling ourselves that way and selling ourselves in the way that you can create a picture of how you're going to be of value and sell yourself to that company. Too many times, I think it's, you know, a square peg and round hole and and everyone gets mad and we create horrible memes and we shoot down recruiters. Going, look, you know, not everyone's just bad. No. So so having said all that, do you do you predict any changes to the way that people are recruited this year given kind of the situation right now? I think yes. One is being in here in this industry for over twenty years.

0:21:21
The battle cry was, I will only work remote. I will only work remote. Yeah. And all of a sudden, we're all working remote. And people are still not finding jobs. I was like, okay, wait a minute. If your battle cry was remote, and you're now of a sudden, have all these remote positions open and you're not applying for jobs. What is the issue? Well, it's not well, okay.

0:21:49
So the pandemic brought us a really good silver lining that it was at the right time that technology was available and a lot of technology sped up to the point that we all felt comfortable and almost overloaded. We all were overloaded with virtual, this, that, and the other. And I think it gave us as employers and as employees an opportunity to decide how much we wanted to be remote and how much we didn't. And even in in my community and the government cleared space, it opened up completely. I mean, we now have remote jobs, a hundred percent remote jobs that are cleared. We have hybrid jobs, you know, two days a week inside the facility, three days out. We have other positions that you can be remote completely, but you have to be within two hours of the facility -- Mhmm. -- once a month. So you have to be able to drive and do face to face. So I think those changes have really made a big shift in how people look at what kind of jobs they want.

0:23:00
I think the other is culture was really big and was a good sort of how did how were employees taken care of during the pandemic, and how did companies show up? And so if you really showed up well, for your employees during the pandemic, your company culture was rock solid, and you have a really good foundation going forward. If you didn't, you still have something to look at. So those kinds of culture questions really took foot during the pandemic. And, I mean, even, you know, I became much more of a moral champion inside my company versus outside because that was what was needed at that time. I think the other thing is we other than having a mental health awareness month, we really are looking at where mental health sits within in the recruiting, in employee engagement I mean, now with all the layoffs, we have no new level of stress out there. That cannot be pacified with having ten different kinds of teas and and a billier table and and the basement that no one's gonna go to because they're all working remote. Anyway, I think those are some of the changes that used to be nice twos, but are now part of the discussion?

0:24:34
I get asked about AI a lot. And AI replacing my job. Yes. You know, and and there are so many technologies out the people. It's gonna replace your job. It's gonna replace your job. Well, you can't replace people. As much as we would love to replace people and we think SkyNet's gonna take over. I think that people are creative, people have initiative, they are innovative. They know how to read body language. I think that we you're always going to be able to reengineer yourself to keep your job, you just have to be aware of what the environment wants and what you're successful at. Well, this has been a great conversation, Kathleen. I I always love talking to you about recruiting and the things going on in in the career world.

0:25:26
How can our listeners find out more about you and all the stuff you got going on at clear jobs dot net? Best place right now is LinkedIn. So Kathleen Smith. On LinkedIn. Our website is clearedjobs dot net. And I'm on Twitter. Yes, it's Kathleen, but I'm sort of taking a break and and being quiet and just being on LinkedIn a little bit. And I will be at some of the B sites this year, I'm I'm taking a bit of a break, taking care of myself.

0:25:58
Last year, I was on a plane about once a week throughout eight to ten months taking care of family and business. So I am not getting on a plane until I go to Vegas this year. Good for you. Not until August. Love being on your show, and thanks for having me. Thanks for listening. If you enjoyed this episode and you'd like to help support the podcast, please share it with others. Subscribe on your favorite podcast listening app or this a rating and review. To catch all the latest from the show, visit our website sharedsecurity dot net for all show notes in previous episodes Follow us on Twitter at shared sec and join our Reddit community on the shared security show subreddit. Thanks again and we'll see you next week another episode of the Shared Security Show.